fight on the right, let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris mathews in washington. let me start with this show happening on the right. as i speak you can hear the rumble of right versus right vitriol, fingers are wagging angrily, crazily in every direction now. karl rove, the architect of the iraq war, the escape -- is

thumping around the country right now like a wounded elephant threatening to crush the party's fringes. tea partiers look out, he may not be able to beat democrats but he has big bad you in his sights. the fight has begun. while steve king, tea party general, joe walsh, rish limbaugh, mark levin, paul brown, all the inhabitants of the could could nest because karl rove is drawing lines in the sand. want republicans to win, cut out the crazies. beat the democrats stop giving them easy targets, rape candidates and stop making the democrats look smart and reasonable by running stupid and crazy candidates. the joy is i have to say this, it's really quite funny, each of the right wing factions thinks they are the sane ones, the ones that have to protect the party from the others. tonight, the duel of the death drives deeper, do or die, fight to the death, winners run against hillary clinton. the losers say it's not their fault they lost.

wait a minute. that doesn't make any sense and neither does this fight on the right for the right to say you're right and with me tonight are two msnbc political analysts joy reid of the grio and david corn from mother jones. it's a joy to watch this, watch rove running around as a new matt dillon cleaning up the party, cleaning up main street from all the bad guys when, in fact, many people would say that karl rove has been the problem from since 2000 when he brought us "w." >> absolutely. you nailed it. you call him the coocoo's nest. the reason he's considered a smart guy in politics he's found a way to convince the nest george w. bush is really your guy and then to go to the business wing of the republican party and say guess what, george w. bush is your guy. this guy passed off neo conservatism as conservatism, passed off the idea of endless war and nation building to conservatives. he sold them a bill of goods and what they got back is medicare part d, ballooning deficit and

crisis that devastated the country. a failed war in iraq that it was ill-advised to put it mildly and now, the coocoo's nest as he cullty mated to in -- cultivated to win elections in 2000 and 2004 think they're in charge and not going to listen to him saying they're not. >> what was the big thing with karl rove? did he start a war to celebrate the tax cut or have a tax cut to celebrate the war? he put it all together, joy put it right. i forget to mention the prescription drug thing thrown in without financing it. >> right. he did do a great job you know, mobilizing and energizing the right wing base to get behind bush and he and the others did a great thing in the last few years under barack obama getting them together by demonizing barack obama and went on the fringe. >> he went on fox to defend himself and profess his love to

the tea party. trying to trash can these people. let's watch. >> i repeat, we spent $30 million for tea party senate candidates and $25 million, there's no group that comes close to what cross roads has done in terms of financial support for tea party candidates. >> and we believe -- >> the question is not tea party or not. not the question of tea party or not. the question of whether they're a bad candidate or not. >> what does o'reilly think of these people? he must be looking at rove like what's your latest stuff here? what are you selling here? >> exactly. >> he might as well -- karl rove should have written on the white board, i have no principles. karl rove doesn't care what the ideology is. he's just selling a product. he's the guy who described the iraq war as a product and said you don't take a product to market in august. this guy is into power. he's always been into getting power for its own sake. his first ever campaign he was

involved in was in college when he snuck on to the campaign of a democrat running for something like treasurer in illinois and wrote those leaflets he distributed to homeless shelters saying for a good time and free women and liquor come to this democrat's rally. this guy has no principles. >> sliding down the iq squall here to texas governor rick perry told laura engram today the tea party isn't at fault for the losses racked up by republicans. let's listen to governor perry. >> i would suggest to you that people who try to moderate their views to win a particular vote, are going to be weaker and weaker as time goes. i think people want to see people they believe, people they trust, and people that are going to be consistent in their positions. so moderation from the standpoint of in pursuit of an electoral victory is a failure

in my opinion. >> you know, every once in a while someone comes along in politics who doesn't know anything about politics. sparrow agnew would talk about people being soft on communism, unaware of the mccarthy period, 20 years of that talk getting you nothing but trouble. here's a guy that calls himself a texas conservative who has no memory or knowledge of it, apparently, be the history of modern conservatism. when he said moderation gets you in trouble listen to barry goldwater who cooked his party for years with this line back in '64. >> i will remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. >> all i can say is wow. that kind of straight from the hip, right wing talk, and there's perry with absolutely no knowledge that this kind of talk that moderation weakens you, you

know, civility. >> don't tell me you have expectations of rick perry. >> okay. >> let me play off -- >> are you accusing me of parroting these guys by suggesting they might have had an iq. >> yes. >> what joy said though, she talked about karl rove in a cynical way, and i agree with that, but at the same time, there is a divide and always been, in the republican party, between the establishment crowd and the populace -- >> what size rove -- >> right now he's more establishment. when a party is out of power -- >> that's what a party establishment looks like. >> exactly. when a party is out of power, that's when these tensions come up and start eating their own. they can't go after barack obama now but to maintain their own power and have a debate they need to have -- they have to have this fight. >> back to the stuff. rush limbaugh, big surprise here, sided with the tea party this week saying rove's plan will back fire on conservative. let's watch. >> the establishment

republicans, the inside the beltway establishment types, remember, these are the people they supported charlie crist over marco rubio, these are the brains, these are the guys who are going to protect the republican party from you, be they also opposed rand paul. remember, they supported arlen specter over pat toomey and on and on. there are countless examples. the bottom line is they don't have any better record at picking winners than the quote/unquote amateur tea party types do. and even when they pick winners, what do we end up winning? we get squishy republican moderates. >> there's that squishy. >> they got tax hikes for ten years. >> come on. >> this man, you know, they say a certain kind of bug or insect would survive a nuclear war, we don't have to use those terms but we know which it is. look at the rap sheet on this

guy karl rove and how he continues to talk. down memory lane and remind oursselves at least if the right wing doesn't of karl rove's greatest hits. top adviser to president george w. bush he sold the war in iraq to everybody, except some of us. got off scott free even though at the center of the cia leak scandal. walked from that one. the architect couldn't help a republican majority in the 2006 mid terms bringing the democrats back to power in both the house and the senate for the first time. he blew it all on the table. and in 2012 the sunlight foundation reported that cross roads had a 1%, 1 in $100 return on its election investment. he has taken so much money from people and lost so many races he's down to $1 return on $100. that's not a good investment. there he is out there telling the republican party what it's got to do is get rid of the other guys, not him. >> i'm glad you played that clip from rush limbaugh. karl rove and rush limbaugh are much the same, both using the same no nothing crowd, people

out in the hinter lands angry, who don't understand why the country is changing, sort of the new america, don't feel comfortable in and both using them to sell a product for rush limbaugh to get his advertisers there because radio is dying and he has to keep his show going. for karl rove the accumulation of power by tricking these people. you get the sense he doesn't necessarily respect the base. >> young lady, you've done it again. teaching me this business i'm in. what is terrestrial radio, as opposed to satellite. >> radio as opposed to satellite, xm as opposed to -- >> when is the first time -- clean up here, fes up, when is the first time you used that term in your life? >> only because i used to be in the radio business. you call it terrestrial. >> like et, terrestrial radio. >> karl rove needs a reason to exist, needs -- >> i know french. >> i know you know french. >> he needs a reason to exist. the tea party has gotten their, you know, their market share of the republican product.

so he needs -- >> okay. both you guys, tell me this, what percentage of the regular voting republican party, the party that voted for w., we're going to learn something tonight, joy, you first, what percentage of the regular republican vote, the people who vote republican for congress and president, is tea party oriented, hard right? >> i think it's a third. i think the republican party is one third evangelicals, one third tea parties no nogs and business types. >> have a nice weekend. you too david corn. >> how deep is the debate over drones? some have taken issue with the obama administration's drone policy. this is a family dispute in my house. polls show most americans support it, even most liberals, even when it means killing americans who plot with al qaeda. four senators, two democrats and two republicans, working on a deal to expand background checks for gun sales. two are members of the nra. if they can strike a deal, a big part of president obama's gun

safety proposals could be within reach. the movie "silver linings playbook" puts mental illness in the spotlight. we're joined by david russell, talk about the issue on the oscar history the movie could make and i think it has a shot. rick perry escalates the war with california counterpart he's not slightly a counterpart, jerry brown so much better, in the side show. this is "hardball," the place for politics. tossing and turning have given way to sleeping. where sleepless nights yield to restful sleep. and lunesta®(eszopiclone) can help you get there. like it has for so many people before. when taking lunesta, don't drive or operate machinery until you feel fully awake. walking, eating, driving, or engaging in other activities while asleep, without remembering it the next day, have been reported. lunesta should not be taken together with alcohol. abnormal behaviors may include aggressiveness, agitation, hallucinations, or confusion. in depressed patients, worsening of depression, including risk of suicide, may occur.

alcohol may increase these risks. allergic reactions such as tongue or throat swelling occur rarely and may be fatal. side effects may include unpleasant taste, headache, dizziness, and morning drowsiness. ask your doctor if lunesta is right for you. then find out how to get lunesta for as low as fifteen dollars at lunesta.com. there's a land of restful sleep. we can help you go there on the wings of lunesta. hmm, we need a new game. ♪ that'll save the day. ♪ so will bounty select-a-size. it's the smaller powerful sheet. the only one with trap + lock technology. look! one select-a-size sheet of bounty is 50% more absorbent

than a full size sheet of the leading ordinary brand. use less. with the small but powerful picker upper, bounty select-a-size. every signature is unique, and every fingerprint unrepeatable. at sleep number, we recognize the incredible diversity of human beings, and know that up there with your social security number and your phone number is another important number. your sleep number. so we created the extraordinarily comfortable sleep number experience. it's a collection of innovations designed around a bed with dualair technology that allows you to adjust to the support your body needs - each of your bodies. and you'll only find it in one place: at a sleep

number store. where right now, during the ultimate sleep number event, queen mattresses start at just $599 . and you can save an astonishing 50% on our innovative sleep number limited edition bed. you won't find your sleep number setting at an ordinary mattress store. you'll find it exclusively at a sleep number store. sleep number. comfort...individualized. welcome back to "hardball." america's drone warfare got a public airing yesterday as president obama's pick to head the cia went before senators at his confirmation hearing. john brennan defended the program of which he's been called the chief architect. >> i think there is a misimpression on the part of some american people who believe that we take strikes to punish terrorists for past transgressions. nothing could be further from the truth. we only take such actions as a

last resort to save lives when there's no other alternative toic taing an action that's going to mitigate that threat. so we need to make sure there is an understanding and the people that were standing up here today, i think they really have a misunderstanding of what we do as a government and the care that we take and the agony that we go through to make sure that we do not have any collateral injuries or deaths. >> brennan's testimony had been interrupted by code pink five times by war protesters. they were upset by the drones. polls show for the most part, those protesters out there, they're legitimate certainly, represent a small minority. most americans back using drones to carry out targeted assassinations and while senators took issue with the white house secrecy surrounding the program no one voiced objections to the drones themselves. this is going to be a hot discussion here. visiting professor at the university of georgia and ron reagan, an msnbc political analyst. it's great to have you on because i think you're both progressives it's fair to say.

what struck me last night driving home from philadelphia last night, listening to the ed show on radio he took one of those polls. this question was hardly put together in a way to justify one end of the answer but came out the other end i think. do you support the policy of targeted killings of american citizens. i would think maybe 1% would have said yes, the way this was phrased. the policy of targeted killings of american citizens. 78% said yes. a progressive audience that watches and list tons ed. a progressive audience, 78%. i think he was surprised. i was certainly surprised by it. you're thinking ron, this is a progressive audience and four out of five are saying get those bad guys, they're turn coats if they're americans they're not one of us, they're one of them now. your thoughts? >> i think most americans do agree if there are individuals, even americans, who are imminently planning to cause destruction and death in the united states, that we ought to do something about it.

we ought to interdict. the question, though, it seems to me is not whether we should do this at all, but on who's say so? >> suppose you get a call in the middle of the night or with a few hours notice, we have a target, a high-value target in yemen, we believe this person is about to conduct an operation against one of our ships in the gulf, we have to stop them. we've got the technology, we've got him in sights, the judge is asked yes or no. >> chris, i don't -- >> how does he stop this and say i of my own volition say i'm not going to do it. let the guy do his thing. >> i don't envision that's the way the system would work. the people who are placed on these kill lists, are on there for at least days, if not weeks or months, before the drone operators decide that this is the moment where we have the right intelligence to act on taking them out. so why not present that evidence

to an independent review body at the moment you believe you have enough evidence to say these people represent such a danger to the united states, they need to be killed. >> yesterday, they grilled john brennan about aspects including the rights of americans who might be on the kill list, americans themselves. take a look at how he answered a question on that from senator widen of oregon. let's listen. >> do you believe that the president should provide an individual american with the opportunity to surrender before killing them? >> any american who joins al qaeda will know full well that they have joined an organization that is at war with the united states and it has killed thousands upon thousands of individuals, many, many of them who are americans. >> i guess let's go back, ron, to another tricky question, we would like to believe being in the born in the united states, the 14th amendment, entitles you

to all the rights all three of have, full rights of american citizenship president at what point do you yield that up in a moral way that you think? when do you yield it up? >> i think if you put on the uniform, so to speak, of another team and are looking to kill americans and attack the united states of america, that you've crossed a line and now, you know, you're going to face the consequences. >> what about domestic terrorists in this country, tried to blow up and have blown up public facilities because they're enemies of the united states government, at least? >> well, this raises a very -- >> the way they look at it. >> this raises a very interesting question, when we talk about drones. if the excuse for using drones is imminent threat to american lives, which seems to be the rationale, what if that threat is coming from within the united states? there is another point here that's worth making here. the french philosopher john paul, once said, when you choose for yourself you choose for all mankind. if we are okay sending drones over other countries to kill

american citizens or other individuals without that country's permission, we have to acknowledge then that when this technology spreads to other countries and it will, it's not that sophisticated, that we're okay then with other governments doing the same thing and other countries and where does that lead exactly? >> on the same program, both of you, we have heard the phrase resin dets tra and reference to john paul. i'm proud of our program tonight. thank you very much, ron reagan, i'm going to quote him next week just to catch up with you and cynthia tucker. have a nice weekend. up next, texas governor rick perry escalates that fight, kind of a tussle, with california's jerry brown. i'm betting on brown in this one. this is "hardball," the place for politics. stamps.com is the best.

i don't have to leave my desk and get up and go to the post office anymore. [ male announcer ] with stamps.com you can print real u.s. postage for all your letters and packages. i have exactly the amount of postage i need, the instant i need it. can you print only stamps? no...

first class. priority mail. certified. international. and the mail man picks it up. i don't leave the shop anymore. [ male announcer ] get a 4 week trial plus $100 in extras including postage and a digital scale. go to stamps.com/tv and never go to the post office again.

now to the side show. added heat on perry versus jerry today. i told you about the tussle between the governors of our two biggest states, texas and california. rick perry began running a radio ad in california trying to lure business owners to texas and jerry brown was unmoved by the five figure ad buy or as he put it -- >> it's not a burp, it's barely a fart. >> thank you. >> anyway, turns out perry isn't just sticking to the airwaves. next week he will be showing up himself in california. cities like san francisco and los angeles, to keep up the move to texas gimmick. anyway, a cartoonist for the "sacramento bee" is out with a page. i'll read the balloons to you, from perry, we got three advantages over california, first we got your low taxes, second we got your low wages and i can't remember the third. what's the other character responds, the wide open spaces in your head.

anyway, next, it's no secret that chris christie and newark mayor cory booker aren't exactly best friends, i didn't know that, christie kicked off the week joking about his weight with david letterman. later he was telling a white house physician to shut up over concerns about his health and weight. guess what project booker announced yesterday. his new partnership with weight watchers to combat obesity up in newark. surely this was in the works for a while, but strange about the talk and timing. seems like christie is still in attack mode over the comments from the physician. dr. connie more ran no recounted the phone call she got from the govern governor. >> it was essentially the tone of the press conference. but louder. >> pretty much yelled the whole time. >> uh-huh. >> if this is the way you handle stress, is this presidential? you have to think about that? is this the presidential way to behave. come on. >> political commentary from the

doctor, apparently calling her at a hack at the press conference was not enough. coming up next "your business" with j.j. ramberg. a talking car. but i'll tell you what impresses me. a talking train. this ge locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what it's carrying, while using less fuel. delivering whatever the world needs, when it needs it. ♪ after all, what's the point of talking if you don't have something important to say? ♪ let's get a cookie sheet. i am the ghost of cookies past. residue. so gross. well you didn't use new pam, so it looks like you're "stuck" with me. that's a really good one. thank you, i'm here all week, folks. no wait...i'm here forever! ha ha ha! [ female announcer ] bargain brand cooking spray can leave annoying residue.

but new pam leaves up to 99% less residue. new pam helps you keep it off. to compete on the global stage. what we need are people prepared for the careers of our new economy. by 2025 we could have 20 million jobs without enough college graduates to fill them. that's why at devry university, we're teaming up with companies like cisco to help make sure everyone is ready with the know-how we need for a new tomorrow. [ male announcer ] make sure america's ready.

make sure you're ready. at devry.edu/knowhow. ♪